In this episode of Elevated Leadership, Julianna Yau Yorgan and Patricia Ortega unpack the complexities of micromanagement. We discuss how to identify a micromanager, the underlying fears that drive their behavior, and how you can adapt your communication style to create a more productive work environment. Tune in for insights that could transform your work life!
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Episode Transcript
Julianna:
Hello, and welcome to the Daring to Succeed podcast. I’m Julianna Yau Yorgan, and today I’m here with Patricia Ortega, and we’re here to talk about micromanagers.
Patricia: One of the things that we were talking about, Julianna, that I would love for you to start with was your mention of micromanager versus someone who’s just highly structured. How do we even tell the difference?
Julianna: Yeah, it’s sometimes a really fine line, especially with all the different personality types that we’re dealing with on a regular basis. But for me personally, someone who’s very structured is just like, here’s the process, here’s the list of stuff, or here’s what I need out of you, go do. And maybe the feedback is, oh, hey, you missed a step or something. where a micromanager might feel like that, but sometimes they change the rules kind of on the fly to suit them, right? You think you’re following all the rules, you think you’re doing all the stuff that they are expecting and they’re like, no, that’s still wrong. Or maybe they will just always be checking in on you like multiple times a week or even multiple times a day just on progress or things like that. I think the best way for me to describe it is someone highly structured has actually thought through what they want. They can articulate it. They can tell you up front, this is what my expectations are. We’re a micromanager. knows they need the right outcome, but they almost can’t really articulate it. So they just constantly barrage you with, oh, don’t forget about this. Oh, no, that’s not what I want. Hey, do this. What’s going on? Like, it’s much more chaotic than someone who is just a stickler for process.
Patricia: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. You said it really well. You have a process in your mind and someone who’s highly structured can put that process on paper and then trust that someone else will follow it versus a micromanager is like, read my mind. And when you can’t read my mind, I’m going to take over the process. So there’s both this inability to hand off the process and provide expectations and rules, but then also the fear and worry that it’s not being done my way.
Julianna: Yeah, and I think that my way is maybe the key point where it’s more about how they think it should be done versus like a codified way of, hey, we do this for a specific reason.
Patricia: Yeah, I know. This all sounds so familiar. All the memories are rushing back to me, right? I am not communicating what I want in a way that you can do it independently, but it has to be done my way, even though I haven’t done the work to lay that process out. And so a couple of ways to identify micromanagement, I was looking at what are some different ways that we can say, okay, this is micromanagement, this is lack of a structured environment or whatever it might be. You can identify micromanagement because first, what we all know, excessive oversight, right? There’s just constantly wanting to know what you’re doing. Are you doing it well? And you don’t actually know what well is. Having too many check-ins, a low trust environment, meaning you always feel like their way is better than your way, even though you’ve been hired as an expert to do the job you’re going to be doing. Invasive communication. So we’re talking emails over the weekend. We’re talking having to be copied on simple communications across departments or across functions, and just not having decision-making ability. move the decisions over into their desk before it’s approved so that you can actually take action on it. So you’re more of a worker bee than someone who brings the expertise that you were hired for.
Julianna: Yeah, that sounds so familiar.
Patricia: Is there anything that you would add to that, like from experience of what a micromanager feels like?
Julianna: Yeah, I’m just thinking back because I’ve talked to a few people about their micromanagers recently too and I guess one thing to add would be someone who’s not just not giving you any decision-making ability but they’re not even taking your input into consideration. It goes back to your point about you haven’t been hired for your expertise, you’re just a doer, where maybe they bring a concern to you and say, hey, I need you to do it this way, and if you can logically explain, this is why I think we should do it a different way, the response is kind of like an experienced parent who’s like, well, because I said so, right? It’s less about doing things a better way or a logical way or adapting to the situation it’s I’m the boss so that’s why.
Patricia: Oh my gosh that’s so true and you know I remember always wanting to understand like why Why do you do that? Where does that come from? And one of the things I’ve noticed over time, and then also just researching this, is that a lot of times micromanagers mean well, but it comes out of a focus on self and out of a fear of failure. If you don’t do well, it reflects poorly on me. So I have such a need to look good, to look accomplished, to not have failure on my plate, on my record, right? That I have to make sure that you don’t fail. And it’s less of a reflection of you as the employee that they don’t trust you, but it’s that they’re so fearful of failure that they don’t even want to take a chance. And so the focus isn’t on you, believe it or not. As a micromanager, it’s typically like a thing about themselves more so than one individual on the team.
Julianna: Yeah, I totally agree with that, especially like even if even if they do see the reporting chain the way it is, where as your leader, they’re ultimately accountable for the quality of your work, for your success, where it could be this deep-rooted fear that they failed as a leader because you’re not successful. And their way of solving for that is, well, do it my way, because my way works for me, so it should work for you. the end. It’s more about, this is the only way I know how to be successful. This works for me. I know it. I trust it. So you just should blindly follow this path and you won’t fail. Even if you do, even if it’s uncomfortable, right? They’re so fearful of failure that they don’t see the value in their staff learning on their own from their own failures, which is really sad.
Patricia: It is. And the part that’s so, I don’t know if the word’s irony, but when you’re in this place of, I don’t want to fail, so I’m going to make everyone basically be a robot controlled by me, what happens is you don’t allow people to get into their zone of genius. Number one, it brings motivation down. I don’t know about you, but I am not motivated when someone says, don’t think. Just move your hand this way, move your hand that way. Do you know what I mean? Like I’m so demotivated and I also have no room to learn. So even if I was motivated, I have to do exactly what you tell me. I don’t think it’s just rote action. And I feel like at that point in the long term, There is failure because you have a team that hasn’t been developed. You have a team that doesn’t have any skill besides listening to you. And guess what? As a micromanager, if you, you know, like, and I’m not, you know, right now I think I’m speaking to the teammates, right? So to not confuse, like if you’re on a team, This is what’s interesting. The dynamic that takes place is that now the micromanager feels like they can never leave because they always have to tell you what to do, right? And as a team, you’re lacking that development and that motivation to do a good job. And so this is where, you know, we’ll get into this later in the episode, but in my mind, this is where you want to start thinking, Okay, I need to get my stuff together to change to a different department if this doesn’t work out. Just think ahead. Not that you have to put in your two-week notice, but that you’re like, long-term, this is where micromanagement leads to. It leads to a team that’s demotivated. It leads to a team that hasn’t been developed. It leads to a manager who is stressed because they can’t take a vacation or they don’t feel like they can take a vacation. And ultimately, When you see where this ship is going, right, this is where you want to start getting prepared in case, you know, it’s not a manageable situation.
Julianna: I totally agree. And from from what I’m hearing right now, just with the people I talk with and my clients, there are a lot of these micromanagers out there. So maybe we can like shift gears a little bit and and fill in that gap of, OK, you’re there, you’ve got a micromanager, not quite at the point where you’re ready to leave or you can even leave. kind of what are things that people can do right now to better manage that? Because my starting point has always been, look, it’s completely futile. I don’t know the word. Futile? Futile, yes. To think that you can change your manager. They probably don’t see the downside of what they’re doing. If they did, they wouldn’t be doing it. So let’s start with don’t try to change your manager. You’re just going to be frustrating them and you’re going to set that relationship in the wrong path. But what are some of the things that people can do right now to kind of ease that pain of having someone breathing down their neck or constantly telling them that they’re doing something wrong?
Patricia: Yeah. So here’s the thing. I found it so interesting that you said, try not to change. Like, don’t try to change someone. And what I think of is, you know, Tackling this problem head on directly is probably not the way to go. Saying, hey, you know, maybe you can let me do this, this and that without you, like that’s not going to work. But what you can do is proactively anticipate specific situations or specific environmental factors that can help ease their nervousness or anxiety. desire to control, fear failure. One of these pieces is I think it’s helpful going through the going through the evaluations, through your meetings with your boss, having more communication, and so that your communication is focused more on being proactive and less on being reactive. If you as a teammate are reactive and respond when this micromanager gives you feedback, that’s going to perpetuate the pattern. But if instead you set up expectations and you say, okay, what is expected of me? What’s the outcome? show that you’re partnering with them and that you care about the project as much as they do, and that you’re taking their input on what’s important to them. That’s going to give them a little bit more of that ease. And then if you communicate frequently at steps saying, I know what the outcome is. I know we talked about your believing that these are the ways to make it happen. Here’s some ideas that I have, but making sure that their input, like they get a chance to speak at every opportunity so that they don’t feel like they’re Like things are being done in quote, unquote, a different way. Ultimately, you’ll garner more trust. And that’s what really that fear is going to start to dissipate once you start garnering more trust. So those are like the first few things that I would say help you set an environment where a micromanager, and I don’t want to say this word, but I’m going to say it, but where a micromanager can feel a little bit more safe to take a risk on a team member to let them think on their own, really.
Julianna: But I think building that safety is actually really, really key because one of the big things I’ve noticed with micromanagers is that they don’t feel safe with their team members. Not because of their team members, but because of however they’re reading the situation. I’d almost push what you’re saying to the next level and suggest, if you’re comfortable with it, super over-communicating with your manager on everything that you’re doing. Not all at once, not for everything, but for those key things, what’s worked really well for me, what’s worked well for people I’ve coached, is taking one thing to start that they’re very concerned with and just giving them micro-updates throughout the day with what’s going on. It might seem like a lot, but they will barely notice that you’re constantly bombarding them with updates. If that’s how they’re asking for updates, or that’s how they’re dropping into your day, that’s probably their expectation, is this concept of constant communication. where things I’ve done is, hey, had a conversation with so-and-so about this, this was the outcome. I’ll see that it’s been read. They may not respond. I’m not even asking for approval or confirmation or decision or anything. Just, hey, this is what’s happened. I’m going about my day now. And then here’s another thing that happened. Until they actually tell you to stop. And I’ve actually seen some micromanagers love that and not ask for that to stop. Again, it may seem like a lot of work, but once you get going, it almost feels like second nature where it’s like, alright, I’ve done my thing, I’ve updated my boss, so they’ve got that feeling of safety that they know what’s happening. That they’re not out of the loop, that you’re not doing something behind their back. Because oftentimes these micromanagers do have trust issues, sometimes stemming from real situations in their past, in their career, where they were out of the loop on something and then they got caught. right? Or somebody came to them and said, why is this going on? I can’t believe it. And they didn’t even know that was going on. So they’re trying, they’re basically over adjusting for something that’s happened to them that’s negatively impacted their career before. Yeah.
Patricia: Yeah. And, you know, as you’re talking, one thing that came to my mind is, okay, Yes, we are working on creating a quote unquote safe space, right? Which sounds, it could sound, especially if you’ve been under the eye of a micromanager and it’s frustrating and you’re like, I’m sick of this, right? It sounds like, wait, hold on. So the answer is to call it on my manager is what you’re saying, right? And I just wanna be really clear that that’s not the goal. The goal is to understand who your leader is, what’s important to them, adjust your communication style, It’s a win-win situation. It helps them be a better leader. It helps you have a better experience in your workplace. It also helps you to advance because when it comes time for those conversations, when it comes time to figure out who’s going to move up and how they’re going to move up, you’ve now decided, okay, this is what’s important to my leader and this is how I’m going to use that. I’m going to figure out what the game is. I’m going to do the strategy and I’m going to win the game. it might seem as though, wait a second, wait a second, hold on. This is supposed to be correction for my leader. But this is part of managing your manager, that it is not necessarily correction that’s going to win the game. You’ve got to figure out what game you’re playing politically and then use the right strategy. And going along with that, one of the pieces that I think can also be helpful along with that communication is, that leader is going to want to kind of have surveillance, right? Like, what are you doing? What’s going on, right? And so what you can do is very subtly sort of place a boundary on the surveillance and instead focus on support. So providing them proactive ways of, here’s a couple of ways that I could really use your support. So you’re inviting them into your work. So they feel the involvement, they feel the input, but you are putting parameters around what that is, or at least suggesting parameters around I could really use your help in this in this part. I feel really confident about what’s going on here and I’ve gotten your input. But if you could help me with this over here, that’ll almost like give them something to do while you can take over on the pieces that you feel really comfortable on.
Julianna: Yeah, I really love that because both with that strategy and improving your communication so that it matches up with your manager’s expectations, as long as you’re paying attention to how they respond, you’ll very quickly be able to tell what they care about and what they don’t. Because as you were talking, Patricia, about how you can ask invite their their input invite their support on the specific pieces that you want them involved with if they if they say i don’t care or what however you like or or whatever whatever terminology is giving you free reign on that particular thing then you know they don’t they’re not going to micromanage you on that piece you’re you’re almost indirectly asking for permission to do that on your own, or they’re giving you permission because they’ve been asked for it. Where if they actually care, like let’s say you’ve been asked to write an executive summary on something that the team is working on to help her with whatever, and your manager has a specific way of writing things, you could say, hey, I really need your help with the wording of this piece of whatever I’m writing. If they say, oh, I know your writing is fine. Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to worry about it. But then if they actually carve out time to sit down with you and work with you on that, you know instantly they really, really care about that.
Patricia: Kind of aligning your priorities with their priorities.
Julianna: Exactly. And feeling out, not just setting your own boundaries, but where are their boundaries? Where do they feel they need to be involved versus those little pockets where, okay, they can give up that control. Because trust me, not every micromanager is going to want to micromanage every single piece of what you’re doing. They simply don’t have time. It feels that way because they’re constantly there. But again, if you’re paying attention to the language that they’re using, what they respond to and what they don’t, you’ll be able to start picking up on what are the pieces that worry them that you need to keep them closer on.
Patricia: Yeah. And I think that makes a big difference. Just paying attention, like where’s that 20-80 divide, that’s going to make a really big difference. And as that’s happening, it also made me think, okay, how do we manage ourselves during that time? And it’s very easy to absorb someone else’s anxiety about a situation. And in the same way that they’re projecting their own fears and worries onto you, you could easily absorb those. So I encourage you to be really intentional about not taking in their stress as your stress and not taking in their self-doubt as your self-doubt. Because then it becomes a cycle where it’s really destructive Because now you have two people, right? The team member or you and the micromanager in this case, who both feel a sense of anxiety, both feel a threat. Ultimately, instinctively at the core, it’s a threat. And so now it’s us against them. They’re telling me I’m doing something wrong. Well, they’re not doing a good enough job and now I’m gonna fail. And so it’s just a spiral. So maintain your confidence, maintain your composure, recognize that as a human, because you’re not a robot, you’re going to want some extra emotional recovery time. This is going to the gym after work. This is listening to something positive on your drive. This is having a biweekly meeting with a mentor, talking to someone at the organization who can help you navigate the situation. You need those pieces because if you are working under a micromanager, it is possible that there’s like the balance is off. So technically, you’re kind of in the hole a little bit. So you have to come up with ways to feed yourself positivity so you can come back to balance.
Julianna: Yeah, and I think some of it too is making sure that you aren’t internalizing their exact words when they’re telling you something’s done wrong or that it’s not up to par or whatever, where most of the times I do recommend people pay close attention to the wording, but when it comes to a micromanager criticizing your work, ignore that. Because whatever they’re saying, what they’re trying to say is, That’s not what I want. It’s not about you did it wrong or the outcome is wrong. It’s whatever you did isn’t how I would have done it and it’s not how I want it done. That’s all they’re saying. They may be using all sorts of words. If they have other insecurities, they may be projecting the failure and the frustration onto you and directly blaming you for something. But at the end of the day, they’re trying to adjust for not being able to articulate to you what it is they want. and just kind of losing it. So whatever that is, yes, absolutely, like you said, Patricia, we need that extra recovery time to kind of ease off of that heightened emotional feedback that’s coming from a micromanager. But before we even absorb it, it’s filtering out, hey, whatever they’re saying to me, they’re just trying to say that this is not what I want. So the question becomes, what is it that they want? How do I deliver that so that they can kind of back off a little bit next time so that I can just do this the way I need it done? Yeah.
Patricia: That’s so important. Okay, so let’s say now, as we start to wrap up, that you’re currently in this situation. You’ve got a micromanager and you’re like, I want to get away. So I’m going to be looking for a different position or going on to a different team. When you’re going through the job search process, Julianna, what are your ideas on how can we try our best to spot the micromanager?
Julianna: That’s such a good question because I’ve found in my experience it is so hard. Mainly because micromanagers don’t actually know that they’re micromanaging. They don’t think that they’re as particular as they are with how things are delivered. all of the micromanagers I’ve had, all of the ones that I’ve kind of deconstructed with my clients, think that they’re very easygoing, very open, supportive people, which they may be in other respects, but because that’s the image they have of themselves, that’s what they’re portraying to you in an interview, right? So Trying to suss that out in an interview is really tough. I’d say if you’re vying for like an internal move, just trying to get onto another team or trying to get promoted onto another team, leveraging your internal network is really good. So talking to other people on that team to see, hey, who can trust me enough to be open and tell me a little bit about what it’s like working for this boss. Even if they don’t want to come out and say that they’re micromanager because they might be a little bit worried that it’ll come back to them. you’ll be able to pick up if they start to get uncomfortable talking about, like, how flexible are they or, you know, are they there all the time when I need them? But I find that asking a question about a process that needs to be followed is a really good indicator. Because if they start using terminology like, oh, well, I always have my people do this, then they’re not necessarily for sure a micromanager, but that’s probably a good indicator that they’re focused more on themselves than the process. Going back to our discussion about is it a stickler for processes? Is it someone who’s just super organized versus a micromanager? The organized manager will be like, oh, well, this is the process. We just have to follow it. Or this is the process and this is why we do it this way versus oh, this is how I have my team do it. It is very different in terms of how they approach a question about, oh, what’s the process for submitting, like for requesting vacation days? Or what’s the process for this particular piece of work that we’ve talked about? You can kind of get a better sense of them asking a question like that versus, oh, how do you assign work to your team? Because micromanagers really struggle with that because they don’t actually have a process.
Patricia: Interesting. You know, part of what came to my mind in terms of like, okay, when you’re in an interview with a micromanager, it’s very similar to what you mentioned. You know, we talked about it’s kind of like on your resume. When you’re a candidate, everyone’s going to say, I’m a team player. By the way, if that word is on your resume, I need you to take it out. But, you know, when you look at resumes, so often you see skills that are soft skills that cannot be proven quantifiably. And so this is why people say, don’t put soft skills like explicitly on your resume if they are not accompanied by a more tactical skill, by a measure, a scope, et cetera. It’s because you can’t prove them. I can say I’m a great team player, but really I am terrible at being a team player. And so this is where the vague questions, like you mentioned, Julianna, are not going to be as helpful. You know, tell me about, you know, communication between the team and the leadership. And they’re going to be like, oh, communication’s great, blah, blah, blah.
Julianna: It’s so important to me.
Patricia: It’s so important. I inherently trust all my teammates, right? Because everyone sees themselves that way. But if you ask a really specific situation, think of it just like if they’re interviewing you, you’re interviewing them as well. So ask a specific question about one particular point in time and how that situation was addressed. Especially if there’s multiple people on the interview committee, you really can’t lie And if you can, you can see it in the other people’s faces, right? So you ask about a specific situation so they can give specific details. And so a question might be something like, You know, I’d love to know about a situation, an example. So those are the two words you want to use to make sure it’s a concrete example. An example of a time when there was a, you know, an employee wanted to experiment and try something new, or there was a conflict between an employee thought, you know, a teammate thought, that something should be done versus leadership. How does that navigate it, right? And then kind of pay attention to how they answer that question. And feel free to ask follow-up questions, right, with good intent, in good faith, productively, positively, humbly, right? But ask specific follow-up questions that help you understand exactly what happened, the facts that you can then interpret instead of asking, well, did you micromanage it, right? Instead of asking the straight up question, ask the facts that will help you discern kind of what actually took place.
Julianna: I love that because I’m just playing through some of those example questions you had and I think those are really good ones for even if you’re not trying to figure out if they’re a micromanager, just to understand how that team actually functions together and how flexible the type of thought process that your manager is going to have if they’re asked, oh, what if somebody wants to experiment with the process? If you see people start to sweat. They’ll literally pull back. And you’ll see it if you’re in person or on a virtual call, you’ll see them pull away from the computer because they’ll be like, oh my god, we can’t experiment with process. That’s the process. It has to be followed. Versus somebody who might, like I was thinking, what if I got asked that when I was interviewing someone? Be like, okay, well, It kind of depends. Are you experimenting with a proven process on a high-risk project? Because no. Versus, hey, is something not working well for us and you’re going to try it out in an environment where if we fail, it’s okay. That type of answer is going to be very different than Oh, well, but we have processes for a reason, and they have to be followed for a reason. We’re a very structured organization. Those are huge red flags if you want any sort of autonomy in your role.
Patricia: Yeah. Yeah. And asking the question in sections is also helpful, as you’re mentioning that, you know, there’s going to be follow-up questions that are needed. But from the beginning, you can say, you know, I really enjoy an organization that has a good level of structure, but that also provides its employees its ability to, you know, their ability to use their talents. And so I’m curious what it looks like, and you can say it, right, what it looks like in a relatively low-risk situation. Can you give me an example of? And so you’re kind of prefacing it, so you use less of the time on the back and forth. And then at the end, you can say, I ask because I’m trying to figure out the level of how much autonomy is encouraged. And so you always frame it from a good place. If you were to say, I’m trying to figure out how much decision-making power I have, I wouldn’t ask that. No. But I’m just curious what, you know, how autonomy is encouraged or how professional development, how learn by doing is encouraged, right? So you’re kind of saying, I’m curious how amazing you are, as opposed to I’m curious if you do what I don’t like.
Julianna: Yes. No, it’s a great point. And even, like, let’s say you do all the stuff and you don’t get the job, you may have dodged a bullet. Because I can see some micromanagers that I’ve worked with who would hear that and be like, oh, my God, they’re asking me about autonomy. I don’t want to hire this person. How dare they question me? How dare they question me? How dare they ask if they’re allowed to make decisions? I’m the boss. But the managers you don’t want to work with if, again, you are seeking that autonomy, you’re not just looking for a job where you can kind of clock in, clock out, those managers will filter you out automatically. It’s a two-way street where they’re assessing your questions too, but if you’re asking those questions in an intelligent way, they’ll be like, they’re really good, but I don’t think they’re going to be a good fit for the team versus somebody who wants to hire a person for their brain, for their ability to think and react and respond on the job. They’ll be like, okay, this person’s got some good questions and they’re being very respectful about it. And eventually they can have the autonomy they need once they’ve kind of been onboarded and, and I can, feel that they know what they’re doing, right, within the confines of our particular circumstance.
Patricia: Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, we’ve covered so much ground here. I’m just looking, right? We’ve looked at what does micromanagement look like versus maybe just being highly structured, right? How can you tell where is it coming from? Right, we talked about a control field of failure. It’s about them, not necessarily about you. They’d probably micromanage almost anybody on the team. We also talked about different ways that you can hopefully reduce that micromanagement, that sense of micromanaging, that need and desire for control and that worry and fear. We talked about taking care of yourself and setting boundaries and being able to kind of provide positive pockets of reinforcement for yourself when working with someone so that you don’t absorb their stress. And then we also talked about how can we try our very best to avoid and to discover when someone is a micromanager before you get into the work environment. We’ve covered quite a lot. Is there anything that you’d want to add, Julianna, as we start to wrap up?
Julianna: I don’t think so. I mean, like you said, we’ve covered so much. I think if there was one thing I would encourage listeners to take away from all of this, if you’re dealing with a micromanager right now, is remember that it’s about trying to figure out how do you adapt back to your boss? Not necessarily doing everything they’re asking for or changing who you are, but how do you meet them somewhere in the middle-ish? in a spot that is comfortable for you but also meets enough of their needs that they’re not constantly concerned that you’re going rogue. Which of course you’re not, but that’s kind of the story they’ve told themselves about everyone other than them. So how do you find that middle ground that’s okay for you, that feels right? but still meets your boss somewhere so that they’re not constantly having to go to you because they don’t feel safe.
Patricia: Yeah, it’s a balance. Absolutely a balance.
Julianna: And what about you? What’s your one thing that you’d want people to take away from all of this?
Patricia: I think for me, most of what is happening is not actually being said. And so to just pay attention to those underlying pieces that what’s being said is typically not the full story. In fact, nonverbal communication and perception is more than 70, 80% of the story. So pay really close attention to those pieces, both input, like what you see from them and from the organization, but also what you are giving off as well. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, yeah. Well, we’ve had such a great time, you know, kind of talking about this and figuring out how do we address this situation that can be so draining for so many professionals. And so if you’re here listening, I hope that this has provided you just a little bit of a light at the end of the tunnel that you can either begin to better manage your micromanager or that you can start looking for something new in hopes that you won’t have that situation in the future.
Julianna: Yeah. And I guess for next time, if you’ve got topics that you want to hear from us about, or you’re dealing with a different type of manager that’s a real struggle right now, just let us know and we’d love to talk you through what our strategies and thoughts are on all of that.
Patricia: All right. So this has been a great episode. Thanks again for joining us. And Julianna and I will see you on the next one.